Curse

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 06, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

I've only failed on this mission when the group has multiple people err-7 and disconnects, and are short key pieces.

The mission isn't that difficult as long as everyone has either done it before, or are good at following directions.

Zinger314 · Aug 06, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

I was in The Deep/Urgoz's Warren for four hours last night, offering to answer ANY question that players ask. (You may have seen me as Syria Blackblood. Oddly, only people from GWOnline recognized me, even though my character name is to the left.

)

The most common questions were "What is b/p?" and "what is icy kd?"

The true reason for failure is that people don't know the builds!

As I said, group composition > player skill.

I'll be on later tonight answering questions.

(PS: I only saw 1 Mesmer and 1 Assassin LFG in those 4 hours. I believe we call that "social Darwinism." That's my stance on this whole Mesmer argument...)

Numa Pompilius · Aug 06, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siddious

100+ damage? More like 30 damage. Elementalists don't ignore armour you know.

On a good day, yeah.
I'm taking an ele through the game now, and just used Meteor Shower (at fire magic 15) on a Siege Worm. Guess how much damage it did? 3x9. That's right, 27 goshdarn points damage total. Wheeeee! :PWNAGE:!

A mesmer would have had to settle for something cheesy like a Conjure Nightmare (16 damage per second for 10 seconds, armor ignoring), or Energy Burn (80 points damage, armor ignoring, & 8 energy lost), or cowardly interrupting the siege attacks with Powersurge (doing 100 points armor-ignoring damage) instead of taking them like a man, like my ele had to.

It all comes down to the armor, though. Against lightly armed targets (jade scarabs, say) the ele really does do decent damage, but against hardened targets like a Siege Wurm or Dwarf or pretty much any Ranger anywhere, mesmers and necros outdamage eles so badly it's not funny.

Seriously, especially YunSooJin needs to take a necro or mesmer out for a spin against high-level enemies, and smell the coffee.

YunSooJin · Aug 06, 2006, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

On a good day, yeah.
I'm taking an ele through the game now, and just used Meteor Shower (at fire magic 15) on a Siege Worm. Guess how much damage it did? 3x9. That's right, 27 goshdarn points damage total. Wheeeee! :PWNAGE:!

A mesmer would have had to settle for something cheesy like a Conjure Nightmare (16 damage per second for 10 seconds, armor ignoring), or Energy Burn (80 points damage, armor ignoring, & 8 energy lost), or cowardly interrupting the siege attacks with Powersurge (doing 100 points armor-ignoring damage) instead of taking them like a man, like my ele had to.

It all comes down to the armor, though. Against lightly armed targets (jade scarabs, say) the ele really does do decent damage, but against hardened targets like a Siege Wurm or Dwarf or pretty much any Ranger anywhere, mesmers and necros outdamage eles so badly it's not funny.

Seriously, especially YunSooJin needs to take a necro or mesmer out for a spin against high-level enemies, and smell the coffee.

So what was the point again of ignoring all of my exhaustive arguments before and sticking out your red herring argument?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

It's even funnier how you assume I've never played a necro or mesmer *extensively*. Too bad you're wrong on all counts thus far.

lightblade · Aug 06, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUIU

I'll say it! Mesmers don't belong in anything but PvP.

And this thread is pretty useless, any good group will screen out the noobs by checking their builds.

I don't think you really understands Mesmer. As in...if you ever go check the Mesmer PvE section of this forum, you'll know. Check out these threads.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3044072
A party of all 12 Mesmers in The Deep

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3067543
All mesmer Urgo group

BTW, IW have the highest consistant DPS in the game

Stockholm · Aug 06, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUIU

Oh yeah!

Mes dude: Hey trappah can you run up front?
trappah: why?
Mes dude: i wanna use shatter hex on you but no one is around
trappah: k
*Mes dude shatters the hex - trappah falls to the ground after getting blood spiked*

Oh yeah, while that was happening one of the ele's dropped 2 meteor showers and a rodgorts equalling over 6x that much damage.

First of as a trapper you spend a lot of time right under the foes so shatter hex works real good, and you don't get blood spiked if you set DUST TRAP first, then the rest of the trapps alittle behind the dust. Mesmers are very usefull in an Urgoz trapp group IF They know there job.

Cador · Aug 06, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I really do have to say that Mesmers with epidemic are excelent crowd control, combined with a poison arrow ranger or a trapper. noone can compete with the amount of conditions you can spread. Follow up with Esurge which is mass damage, 80 dmg a target in a very short amount of time. I will continue and edit when i finish waking up.

CHUIU · Aug 06, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

I don't think you really understands Mesmer. As in...if you ever go check the Mesmer PvE section of this forum, you'll know. Check out these threads.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3044072
A party of all 12 Mesmers in The Deep

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3067543
All mesmer Urgo group

BTW, IW have the highest consistant DPS in the game

I don't see screenshots of greens dropping, do you?

And for the record, you're using the most critical skills from each profession normally brought down there. In other words - you're bringing weaker versions of every profession and failing miserably at it.

You're actually doing a good job of proving me right though. I was showed that all mesmer teams, even ones that force mesmers into the role of healer/nuker/tank/etc, wont work. Congratulations on the failure, hope you had fun not getting a green.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

BTW, IW have the highest consistant DPS in the game

If I was a monk, I wouldn't want to sacrifice my energy healing your ass for your consistant DPS on one target over a warrior who can wall while 3 ele's throw flaming rocks on all of the targets.

Once again someone uses armor ignoring damage over 1 target to fight my argument of warrior wall + flaming rocks over groups of enemies?

Not even a fast cast nuker would be useful because the damage would be significantly less and would require getting bips from the necro or more downtime due to exhaustion.

Zinger314 · Aug 06, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cador

I really do have to say that Mesmers with epidemic are excelent crowd control, combined with a poison arrow ranger or a trapper. noone can compete with the amount of conditions you can spread. Follow up with Esurge which is mass damage, 80 dmg a target in a very short amount of time. I will continue and edit when i finish waking up.

Desecrate/Defile Enchantments can deal near equal damage to Energy Surge. And they aren't Elite.

Feast of Corruption can do a LOT more damage. Of course, there's the absurd situation of actually bringing a FoC Necro...

Mr Fizzle · Aug 06, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Imo I think if a mesmer and nukers are working together the trip would go by faster mesmer takes pressure off monks does a little light AoE here and there Cry of frustrates that churning earth that would have been on the eles.Yah lets all just be friends people <3

Hollerith · Aug 07, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUIU

hope you had fun not getting a green.

I think having fun was the entire point there. Hell, I'd join up in that group in a second knowing for sure we wouldn't make it. Not everyone min/maxes; I could roll a B/P and farm tombs all day, but it's fun to you know... do something different sometimes. If I liked doing the same thing all the time I'd play wow or something.

I've never been too thrilled with 3 Ele's casting MS. Damage is lackluster against anything except a caster, and it's too hard to get the KD's to not overlap. Ideally, the melee mobs would be SS'd by the N and blinded by the Mes or Ele.
...and mesmers do just fine in pve, I rarely play my Ele anymore because they only thing he's effective against is cloth casters.

**cosyfiep** · Aug 07, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

The thread was started just to be flamed right?

well....yes, lots of missions will fail this weekend....there are more going on and so the probablity of more of them failing increased. There are more people playing these missions this weekend that would have never played them if they werent 'free'......there are more people there just wanted to experience these missions and not really caring about 'finishing' them.....the journey is worth it even if it ends quickly. Many people just want the gold items too. I dont see this as a problem. This weekend was made for those of us who never did these missions before (and probably wont again)...we just want to experience them, is that a problem?????

I played for the first time this weekend....and my ss necro and a team made it all the way thru the deep......up to kanaxi, and the last 3 rooms we didnt HAVE a warrior at all!!!! My mes/ranger went to Ug's as a trapper....we had a blast! no we didnt complete the mission, but when we decided to quit (after,yes all the tanks had left and the eles were at 60dp) we had played for a few hours.....it was a joy to play for sooo long a single mission/quest. (and it was 3am my time anyways).
Yes strategy is a good tool to have, and getting people to listen is a must....but not everyone is playing as seriously this weekend.....RELAX!!! have just a bit of fun.....

the flame about the mesmers will have to be discussed at a later date....mesmers have every right to be in every single mission and quest in the game....if you know how to play them, they will ALAYS be of use.

Lady Lozza · Aug 07, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

1) For the record, I played anti-warrior mesmer in a number of pugs over the weekend in the deep.

2) Most common cause of failure in the pugs I was with (both the Deep and the Warren) was running for chests without a thought to popups, failing to let the lurer lure properly, and not following the signing on the map.

3) Most unexpected completion on the weekend was the barrage team I was with yesterday. We had:

MONKS
1. Mo/E who thought she was a tank. She would walk out in front of our designated puller and aggro stacks of stuff picking up other people's drops when they became unassigned. Eventually the rest of the team learned to leave her dead and run.
2. Mo/N who didn't seem to understand that HP was a really good idea, and that our MM was our worst enemy if she died.
3. Mo/Me who stayed just a little too far back (erring on the side of caution) making last minute saves somewhat difficult.

RITUALISTS
1. Rt/W spirit spammer with a somewhat unusual combination of skills. AFK about 30% of the time, and took candy canes from our friendly supplier but REFUSED TO USE THEM!

NECROS
1. N/Mo minion master, poor girl kept getting bodyblocked by her minions, and dying. Nonetheless she did a good job. She was our friendly candy cane supplier.
2. N/W BiP, why warrior, I have no idea. Seemed to do a decent job. Saccered himself a little too much though.

RANGERS
1. R/Mo as our primary puller (ww1). Ended up dead more times than not thanks to monk #1.
2. ME (R/Mo) secondary puller (fw1). The only one to run when monk #1`aggroed too much. Did the pulling for the last 3 chambers and only died once when monk #1 leeory'ed (again).
3. R/Mo (ww2). In all honesty she did a good job, knew what she had to do, but kept forgetting to put spirit down.
4. R/Mo (fw2). AFK 50% of the time. Forgot to put spirit down constantly.
5. R/W (EoE1). "Do we have to bring our pet?" - 'nuff said.
6. R/Me (EoE2). Came with traps, "Oh is this a barrage team?" He was our final member and we had specifically advertised, "Barrage group LF barrage ranger w/ 16 BM and EoE!"

So what happened when we FINALLY got to Urgoz?
Well we (being ranger 1 & 2) explained that rangers 5 & 6 had to keep EoE up, and the rest of us just had to run around in circles, the monks had to spam HP, and the BiP had to BiP. So there we are, running around Urgoz, and EoE1 asks, "What am I suppose to do? I keep killing these plant things..."
Urgoz did go down eventually, the MM got the longbow (monk #1 didn't get anything, thank goodness) one bow went to ranger #3, and the other went to "what am I suppose to do?"

Avarre · Aug 07, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Mesmers dont have access to 4 shatter hexes - period. If you used arcane echo/echo+ shatter hex, that is a total of THREE shatter hexes.

Shatter hex has a recharge of 10 seconds, and echo lasts for 20.

Quote:

In addition to that, for any of your hexes to do damage, you must shatter the hexes on the warriors - not anyone in your backline.

Yes..?

Quote:

Also, I have commented multiple times that a mesmer in urgoz was indeed useful. You have explicitly conceeded the fact that elementalists do indeed do far more damage than mesmers, which coincidentally was the ONLY THING I WAS SAYING.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Exactly, so what's your point? As I said, a group with a mesmer and eles would do better than a group purely made of eles in those slots. I'm not saying eles don't do damage, only that people should bring a mesmer. The point of my first post was to rebut the comment (not yours) that mesmers had no place in the elite missions, and then you replied to me, bringing in damage numbers.

Quote:

I wish you'd go back and read my posts Avarre - I've submitted multiple disclaimers and concessions stating that mesmers have their uses, but in order to depict them as some sort of damage dealers (which you admittedly were doing) is nothing short of ridiculous.

The standard argument placed against mesmers is that they suck because they cannot do damage. I've shown they can. That is not the primary purpose, but the basic matter is besides other uses they can also deal some levels of effective damage, which is the standard pug wish. Furthermore, my posts aren't fully directed to you but to be read as a whole with the thread.

Quote:

Thanks for reading,
and sorry for being harsh,

You're not, at least you can structure an opinion with evidence.

Quote:

EDIT: BTW, your CoF is nice for timed interrupts, but the KD exerted by Meteor Shower is a far greater disabler than CoF could ever be.

Yes, but remember that it takes quite awhile before the first meteor kd hits, in that time the mobs can get a large amount of spells off. The echo/glyphed cry's are to help cover in that period until the rocks fall, and everyone dies.

Angel Develin · Aug 07, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

"the reason theres more failure rate in the elite missions weekend?"

Only 1 reason:

NOT HELPING NEW PLAYERS,

not every one reads the forums and get a cookie cutter build you know? allmost every group what i saw was looking the same, no1 makes a new build, maybe one that works better.

what I saw was in allmost every group:

have you done this before?
answer: no I have not
new player kicked out of group

same player 2nd time another group
have you done this before?
"hmm let me think no means I get kicked, yes means I get to see this blody misison"
answer: yes I have

1337 person: so what skill are you taking with?
new in elite mission person: bla bla bla bla
1337 person: OMG you NOOB
new player in elite mission is kicked.

or he could just say: hey dude bring this skills ............. this are better/work better.

It was another sad weekend for GW imo.

chessyang · Aug 07, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

To add to the OP.

you forgot the MM that pulled or held the aggro. WAS about to PULL MY HAIR out.

Yeah the flame spammer! after i started to yell (type in caps) he/she stopped and we lived for a bit longer

The tank that had to tank.

Key work is lure and pull each mob. *sigh*

It''s called an environmental enchantments/effects *sigh* you can't take them off *sigh*

and last but not least the only chest that spawns and spawn 40+ guys. noob runs in and pops it up... kill the group.

I give props and hats off to trappers as they seem to be the only class to know what to do. Every class besides them wanted to a damn HERO.

over all it was fun to have 12 people in a team. 4 monks (and still fail). fight level 28 things. WTF are those fire flowers? give me break, there so damn cheap, might as well have a room/area that gives your -45 dp as soon as you enter it. but it was enjoyably over all.

Lady Lozza · Aug 07, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Angel, for the record, not one player was kicked from any of the groups I was in because they were "noob".

One player was kicked because he refused to participate in the discussion or disclose his build.

One player was kicked because he thought he knew better than the team leader.

One player was kicked because he was abusive after we repeatedly asked him not to bring mending.

One player was kicked because he refused, yes refused, to bring the skills common in a barrage team.

One player was kicked because we needed a lvl12 EoE, and (even though we advertised for it - and he said he had it) he later revealed that he didn't.

Most groups that I played with (pugs that is) had a maximum of 2 players who had done the mission before. The groups that failed failed because they aggroed too much, ran for chests, and didn't following the indicators on the map even after constant warnings. These mistakes are caused not by inexperienced players, but inexperienced, ignorant, and idiotic players.

Effendi Westland · Aug 07, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

I don't understand how you get your ele's to do 100+ AoE dmg /sec down there, I been there with my ele and noticed only 50 dmg from my meteor shower. Sometimes it would do full or near full dmg, but usually not.

And when calculating avarage dmg per sec I also take into account the 4 second precast (GoR and casting time), which brings down my avarage.

Shanaeri Rynale · Aug 07, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

There are some interesting points being raised here. I'm of the view that so long as everyone is having fun, it does'nt really matter if it's optimal or not.

For me, it's not completing the objective in record time, with the least effort and with the fewest number of people possible. While the above is fine and i've no problems with people wanting to play that way, for me personally it's about the journey, not the be all and end all result

We could have killed urgoz in the all mes team, except for the loss of three key players. tbh any team without a trapper and aoe damage will struggle no matter the composition. We will kill Urgoz on the next run, that much is sure. We have the build and the players to do so.

On a side note, all mesmer teams have cleared fow(with no me/w, or standard tank build), completed all bar 2 of the reaper quests in uw(ice king and 4 horsemen), finished Pve Tombs, SF and the list goes on and on. Sure we make use of secondary professions, but far less than one would think and besides what else do we have them for? The team build's are not just replicas of other primary's one but an eclectic and out of the box solutions for the mesmers main weaknesses of low armor and restricted self heal.

It really doe'snt matter what professions are in your team, if you rush you'll die, if you don't control aggro, you'll die, if you don't coordinate, you'll if you don't have sufficient heal or damage you'll die.

The main reason why people fail elite missions.
Err 7
Popping up/Pulling too much
Bad Aggro
Not knowing when to press and when to retreat
Not knowing the maps

It's true that a mesmer is less needed in the deep, but being part of the all mes deep team and myself, bella and another alliance mesmer clearing most of room 1 with just the 3 of us was huge fun and after all that's the whole point.

Eviance · Aug 07, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

I think the OP was just saying that the weekend was chalk full of inexperienced people doing elite missions and not enough experienced people to counter the influx.
If you have done the Deep before you know what to take and how to build the team, but try leading a PUG group of inexperienced players who wont listen or think its a cake walk and thusly is dead 90% of time usually taking out 4-5 others with their monstrous agro and suddenly you have disaster!
I can tell you from experience that at least 25% of the party will die in the first part so rage quitting is just stupid and proves that you obviously don't know the mission that well.
My husband was with 8 guildies and the rest were PUGS, most of the guildies knew what they were doing, but several times there were err 7s across the board and quite a few people who thought the Deep was a 15min mission and thusly left the group cause they didn't allow themselves the proper time needed.

It is very common that most PUGs think they know best as far as their skill bar goes even with no prior experience to the mission/quest. This thread "proves" it. Mesmers are awesome, but I too see it as unnessecary to take one to the Deep. They are better for one on one and not massive destruction... I am not hailing ele power here and as a matter of fact I am usually the SS necro down there if I go (even though I've been wanting to take my ranger).
I sometimes get pretty annoyed with the ele nuking because it causes the mob to spread out unless you have two showers going off at once.

I doubt the OP intended to sound elitest, but even mostly experienced groups were having great troubles down there this weekend. I did see some elitest BS posts in here but even aside from that: knowing how to play your part as part of the team is the winning key.
Be compliant to those who "know" what they are talking about and are willing to help you set up... Could be worse you could be kicked from every group for having one silly skill without so much as a "Can you change that to suchnsuch?" >_< That would suck far worse than changing a few skills for the good of the group eh?
As always if you think your skills are better, challenge the issue with maturity and talk about the pros and cons of each skill. If yours is indeed better then I am sure that there will be agreement as a whole that you can take it/them. But if you are just whining cause you don't want to conform and have no proof to back up your bar then maybe you shouldn't be in such a high level area. If you want to be part of the team then act like it and try to understand that just because it works most the time doesn't mean it will work all the time.

Unfortunately these "elite" missions do call for a general know-how (cause I hate to say they call for a general elitest approach) and a smart group that can work together and listen will win 90% of the time. (I say 90% because of wierd/bad spawns and err7s.)